[unfiltered] Fifty Shades and the Realities of the BDSM Community

[elialshadowpine]

Since the internet has been abuzz with rants and raves about this particular book... well. Initially, I was going to be the Cool Kid and not read it, but I gave in. ;) As always, I has thoughts!

(For those who have been living under a rock, Fifty Shades of Grey is a barely rewritten Twilight/Edward alternate universe fanfic in which Bella (Ana) is just graduating college and Edward (Christian) is a multimillionaire businessman. The book is about their romance and involves a lot of sex and BDSM. It's very clearly smut. The author, E. L. James published it through a small press which I believe is an author co-op and somehow, it sold like hotcakes. James now has a contract with Random House and a movie deal is in the works, though I have no idea how they're going to make this into anything less than an NC-17 rated movie.)

Let me get this out of the way first: The book is a hot mess. I have read significantly better prose in crit groups, and this is some of the worst writing I've encountered. I'm not surprised that the "publisher" was actually an author co-op, because it's pretty obvious between grammar errors, bad formatting, horrible punctuation, and writing that just plain doesn't make sense, that no editor touched this thing.

However, having read it, I'm not surprised it's popular. Let's face it: Many readers are not as discerning as writers are (which makes sense; we work hard at our skill and thus we see errors more easily), and I've honestly lost track of the number of times I've heard a reader say they care more about the story; good writing is just a bonus. On top of that, the story follows a well-worn wish fulfillment fantasy: that of the hot, wealthy businessman with loads of issues who falls in love with the girl next door and can only be healed by the power of true love. Look at pretty much every Harlequin Presents romance in existence; these books are not uncommon. The big difference with Fifty Shades is that it became popular outside of romance circles.

(Also I must add here: Not all romances follow this trope. There are plenty of well-written romances with strong heroines and non-asshole heroes. Considering I write romance, I don't really want to hear crap about the genre, thanks. ;)

But that's not what I want to talk about. What I want to talk about is the BDSM aspects. And for this I'm continuing under a cut with WARNING for frank talk about sex, BDSM, consent, coercion/sexual assault, and related stuffs; also includes some discussion of victim-blaming .

I've read a lot of criticism about Fifty Shades regarding the way BDSM is portrayed. That, say, "real" BDSM relationships don't have contracts, "real" BDSM relationships follow the mantra of "safe, sane, and consensual", "real" doms aren't controlling assholes, etc.

And to that I have to say: Are we in the same fucking community here?

Look, there are great things about the BDSM community. I have met some wonderful people in the scene, and I love that I am free to be myself and express my kinks without judgement. But let's be real here. Doms like Christian Grey flourish in the BDSM community.

The biggest complaints about Christian are that he is pushy about what he wants, that he doesn't particularly seem to care that Ana isn't into it, that he is controlling, and that he is really close to being a stalker. You know what? I have seen all these things, repeatedly, in real-life doms that are respected members of the community. Okay, maybe not quite to the specifics that Christian expresses, but I have no doubt that with the resources of a hotshot multimillionaire, they would do exactly the same thing.

(The other complaint about the books is that they treat BDSM as being like a mental illness, as something that Christian does because he is oh-so-traumatized. That's another matter entirely, and I'm not going to touch on that here.)

The problem with the situation in Fifty Shades is that it's a 24/7 lifestyle but these words are never really used. It's portrayed as "all Dom/sub relationships are this way", which is definitely not true, but for 24/7 D/s relationships? No, it's not unrealistic. None of the examples in the contract stuck out to me as particularly unrealistic, except perhaps the NDA. (I haven't heard of that one but it probably exists somewhere.) For people not familiar with Fifty Shades, these are the sort of things outlined in the contract: what Ana will eat and when, her exercise habits, grooming habits like shaving and waxing, what Ana will wear, Ana's behavior in Christian's presence and at other times, specific days that Ana will devote to Christian, and orgasm control; punishment is also set out for if she does not meet these requirements. None of these are too far out of bounds for a specific 24/7 relationship, but they are extreme for a standard bedroom Dom/sub relationship.

The problem for me in the book is not that these things are in the contract, but that Christian expects Ana to meet them even though she has not signed the contract. He basically assumes that she will sign it and treats her as though she already has. There is no doubt in his mind that she will do what he wants. The problem? Ana isn't kinky, and this is prerequisite for a relationship with him (if you can call it a relationship; he makes it pretty obvious that this is "kink only" but since it is a romance at heart, that changes). He is incredibly controlling and jealous. Although he has a good point about being concerned about her friendship with a man who tried to take advantage of her when they were drinking, he goes way too far. He treats her like she is already his sub when she has never agreed to such, and has in fact told him that she's not into that.

But let's talk about the community here.

A lot of people want to characterize the BDSM community as this happy-go-lucky place of awesome sex and kink where there are never any control freaks or bad guys and everyone respects safe/sane/consensual and enthusiastic consent. Sorry, but that is not the case. There are lots of essays about this (warning: nudity on page, plus discussion of sexual abuse in a kink context), and it is a huge problem in the community.

Men like Christian Grey, that have no qualms about controlling intimate details of their sub's life, including some real scary things like isolating from friends, are not uncommon in the scene. Hell, I have run into women dommes that portray the same warning signs. It's a real issue, and I'm very upset that instead of talking about these things, the reaction to the portrayal in Fifty Shades is: That shit doesn't happen here.

Sorry, but that shit does happen here, and it needs to be talked about. Because women (and men, but I'm going to continue to refer to women because rape culture definitely contributes) are being hurt by these people. They are being pressured into doing things they don't want. I have been pressured into doing things I didn't want, and I did it because I wanted to make the person I was with happy. It is in a very real sense, coercion, which is a form of sexual assault.

And you know what happens in the community? Usually, the survivors are discouraged from talking about it. They're told that it was their fault, that they gave their consent, that they had the opportunity to safeword, that they shouldn't try to accuse a dom of rape when it was "just" their "bad decision" or something they "regretted." If they don't let it drop, they are often ostracized from the community. Instead of being there for the victimized woman, the community rallies around the dom, because, how dare a "false accusation"! (Never mind that they often aren't false.) I am active on BDSM feminism groups, and I have honestly lost track of the number of women who have disclosed horrific stories of doms ignoring their boundaries, sometimes ignoring their safewords, and sometimes outright raping them (note: I truly believe that coercion is a form of rape, but I specify situations that are unarguably rape to bring attention that, no, it is not just "grey area" situations in which this happens) -- and the community's reaction was to ostracize them. The victims. The survivors.

Mind, the same survivors who have virtually no legal recourse because the legal system is woefully unfamiliar with the BDSM scene and is just as likely to say, "You let him beat you? You deserve what you get." And if a woman should go to the police, she will receive even more censure and abuse, because the community likes to believe that it takes care of their own. Except it doesn't. The problem people, the rapists, the creepers, they're still there. They're protected. It's the survivors who are left out to dry.

The rapists? People are quick to make excuses for them. They're quick to support them. Particularly if they are a Name in the community. If they are well-respected, they can get away with almost anything, and nobody will speak up in the victim's defense. It is terrifying, and it's all-too-common.

And it isn't talked about. Many women are aware that this happens, but we don't talk about it, because we would rather believe that our little paradise doesn't have its flaws. Well, it's time to stop that. It's time to start being aware that dom/mes like Christian exist. It's time to talk about it. We need to call out these behaviors when we see them. We need to protect our own. We need to offer support to women who have had these experiences happen. We need to believe them instead of immediately responding with, "Well, maybe you misunderstood......" or "I'm sure he didn't mean it that way", or "Well, you shouldn't have done something if you didn't know for sure you were going to be okay with it. Etc.

They are told to be silent and threatened with the loss of their community if they continue speaking up. They are told that nobody will believe them -- and when the first people they talk to don't believe them, well, what else are they to think? Many of them wind up believing that it was, indeed, their fault, and they stop talking about it. They may even remain in the community and chalk it up to a "bad experience", even though it was so much more.

Shit needs to change. It needs to change before more people get hurt.

And that is why I say to the people who are complaining that Christian is an unrealistic dom: Bullshit. Christian is one of the most realistic doms I have read in a very long time. And you know what? That's fucking sick. You want to know what's even sicker? He's better than a lot of the real life doms I have known. He actually cares about the well-being of his sub, even if he is an overbearing, domineering control freak. Some of what I have seen discussed in kink circles don't lead me to believe that some doms care very much at all.

Edit to add: Since I'm sharing this on Goodreads as well, I'd like to also share why I rated it 3 stars. Even though the book has huge issues, it kept my interest, and I wanted to know what happens next. It also is very much a control fantasy, and I will admit that the fantasy of this uber-hot guy who gives me no choice in the matter makes me weak in the knees. However. This is like rape fantasy; I would never want it to happen in real life, and because this book is being discussed so much as almost a how-to for kink and being presented as a guide to the kink community, I felt the need to speak up about how freaking toxic it is. (And also the extent to which the kink community is insisting that nothing like this ever happens, which is hugely egregious to me.)


Since this is unfiltered, I have some rules for discussion here.

- No victim-blaming. Nada. Zilch. Do it and you're banned.

- I don't want to hear about how your community isn't like that, either. Because, yes, it's more prevalent in some than in others, but it's widespread and it exists everywhere. Even if it were going on in your community, you probably wouldn't know about it, because of how victims are silenced. If you want to say that your community is actively working hard to eradicate these types of behaviors, I'm glad to hear it, but I'm not going to put up with the myth of "It doesn't happen here."

- If you have not experienced these things, great for you. I'm truly glad. I have. Many others have. Please be respectful to other people who might be sharing their stories, and please try not to be dismissive of what others have gone through, even if you haven't.

- General rules of "behave nice" and "respect others"; however, please be aware that intent is not magic, and also please be aware of the privilege of politeness. If someone is angry at what you've said, think about it before flaming back.

- I am also not afraid to use the Banhammer of Doom. If you are being a tool, I will use it.

With that, I now head to bed and wait for the deluge of comments I will probably have in the morning.

Also, before someone asks, this is an open post, so you are welcome to link it around as much as you should like.

This entry was originally posted at http://nonny.dreamwidth.org/478761.html. Please comment there using OpenID.

Comments

[kaelstra.livejournal.com]

I haven't read 50 Shades, though I have access to a copy, after hearing about a scene where he literally rips a tampon out of Ana to have sex with her, I was like LOL what? and just have not bothered to read it.

That said, this article gives me a lot of heebie jeebies about the book. I am not actively participating in the BDSM subculture currently, but I have seen plenty of similar stories to yours.

Christian is a startling realistic Dominant that borders on abuse on his good days, and is far darker on his bad. Honestly, this isn't that far from 50's source material, where Edward was a creepy controlling stalker.

I knew a girl who was 16-17, and was basically just becoming aware she was really interested in BDSM. An older male member of this message board we all used to be members of found out and zeroed in on her almost instantly after all but ignoring her before. We became aware he was pretending to be a Dominant just to basically get close to her, and they were planning a meetup at some point, and it eventually happened. He talked about how he beat her so badly she couldn't walk properly, how he broke a belt on her, and hit her with a coatrack in the hotel room they were in. She was distraught after their first meeting, but sighed it off and said, "Well, he's my Dom, I guess this is what it's like." I tried to tell her that it was wrong what he did, but she had no other experience to compare it to, and just assumed to get the kinky sex she wanted, she had to put up with outright abuse. Sadly, I don't know what ever happened to her, but I hope she's okay.

[elialshadowpine.livejournal.com]

That particular scene didn't actually disturb me that much in context. Out of context, it's weird, but in context, it goes along with the whole "You are mine to have sex with as I see fit" in the contract. (And this is something that isn't uncommon in 24/7 relationships I know of.)

Unfortunately, I have heard so many stories like that. It is really sad. I mean, some of it is pretty close to my own story, which I'm not sure I'm comfortable with discussing publicly. :(

[everstar3.livejournal.com]

Korra's face is pretty much the face I made after I read your first sentence, FYI.

[kaelstra.livejournal.com]

Korra makes the best faces, always.

[elialshadowpine.livejournal.com]

She does indeed. Korra is made of awesome. (Seriously, I love this show so much for showing a muscular, strong-minded woman who veers toward the side of downright arrogant, and isn't shamed for it.)

[soundofherwings.livejournal.com]

I've not read it yet but probably will just to know exactly what everyone is talking about.

The stuff you wrote about is why I will likely never get involved in a local scene. I am involved in the scene on Second Life, mostly spending my time in women-only sims (they're not entirely safe either. I logged on one day and immediately a Domme I am friends with messaged me to vent about a guy showing up on their sim and giving one of her subs problems). I like having a computer between me and whoever I am playing with, especially since I've run into trouble on there before.

By the way, I've seen you on fetlife. We're both in the feminist group I believe. Would you mind if I sent you a friend's request?

[elialshadowpine.livejournal.com]

Of course! Go right ahead :)

[soundofherwings.livejournal.com]

Sent. :) I'm Irisbloom on there by the way.

[nicosian.livejournal.com]

My main concerns: not in order of critical importance..

1. That people think this is good writing.
2. That it was put to press sans ANY editing, straight off the fanfic source document ( legal issues? fuck it, Meyer HAD to have been paid off IMO.)
3.That people wanting to dabble, will see this as a template for normal sexual relations, of which BDSM can be.

And its that last one, that gets me. That now anyone INTO any aspect of BDSM or even just not quite vanilla....

That it does set up this horrible horrible scenario as a normal situation, leaves me wondering now will the people who want this for less than egalitarian purposes ( and in my view, BDSM and all its flavors should be, must be, the balance has to be there), are going to find it a nice little hunting ground and basis for abuse.

That Ana/Bella is this gog eyed newbie virgin is also epic horrible, not in a shaming way, but that the author thought it a clever trope.

That Edward/christian just abuses on her ( I found the orig fanfic online, it is, save for name changes, exact and identical, i won't pay for such garbage), that he ignores her wishes, her needs, no care, no anything, I cannot even comprehend. the character has utterly no...will. no self esteem. Its horrible to read. The tampon scene, I might be insane, but that would be incredibly painful and dry, for her. He doesn't care. Its edgy! its taboo! He mentions FISTING and Anal sex, and "train her ass"....well, no. Asses don't need to be trained like a puppy but if he's the sort to just use her as he pleases, its a massive damn red flag.

I am no hardcore girl in the "scene". But I wager this woman did next to NO research, no reading, made zero attempt at understanding the psychology of sex, dominance, BDSM, and the proper USE of any gear. Flogging a pregnant belly? Jumping fuck WHAT?

That he completely utterly goes off the deep end screaming abuse when the character winds up pregnant, belittling her, is the hallmark, IMO of an abuser.

And so what we have isn't this slinky sexual fun tale, its this horrible horrible story of an abuser and his victim. Read a crime novel, and you'll see "shades of", because its exactly that.

I'm well inclined now to add to my novella/novel, which is very much a safe, sane, equal, rational BDSM tale, a page on "here's resources. Educate yourself if you're going to be dabbling, because I do not want people to get hurt." I am meticulously aware of making sure none of the scenes read creepy or abusive. I really want to raise the damn bar from the depths where this fool has set it.

( and oh, the editing. Iced water: no. its "ice water." And an audi isn't a particularily high end car. nor is "twinnings tea", paracetamol is a britishism, used by two apparent americans. its Louboutin, not Lobatan or whatever multiple misspelling. And on and on. This woman SHAT out a fanfic, and if that's what trad publishers are gunning for now, I'm pretty much done with traditional publishing methods. Not one single effin edit.)

And yet people are reading it for fun, and ideas and fantasy. Good gods. this isn't Tolkien, this is things people DO in real life. And mark my words, someone's going to be stupid and get hurt.

Your story, non, your history, is exactly why this thing red flags all my red flags and then goes out for MORE red flags.

I have to wonder if the author really "researched" with her husband. She coyly mentions it but I strongly doubt she's ever so much as done anything past missionary. I really just don't see it. She writes Ana having these impossible one touch orgasms. Leaving any room for suspension of disbelief, and you still have nothing left to go with. I don't expect someone to go whole-hog on it, but come on, try to put some effort into it, EL. ( this isn't uncommon from what I've seen/heard of M/M fanficcers, who just don't understand biology, sex, or physiology in any base sense.)

Fuck. I hate this book. I hate that it's marketed as mommyporn! and openly as "fanfic!".

Augh.

Ok.

Feeling a bit better now.

[elialshadowpine.livejournal.com]

I only read the first book so the details of 2 and 3 are beyond me ;)

Fisting, anal sex, and anal training are things that I have run into when reading kink checklists online so those didn't seem especially strange to me.

FLOGGING A PREGNANT BELLY? Is this in the 3rd book? Cause, uh, WTF. O.O At least the stuff in the 1st book seemed relatively accurate, but there wasn't much more described than a spanking, light flogging, and use of a crop. (None of which I consider particularly hardcore and all of which are often available in joke shops like Spencer's.)

Yeah, one of my big concerns is how many people have said they have read this book and that it's given them ideas to try in the bedroom. Eep! I hope they do proper research first, because while this is honestly realistic to things I have seen in the scene -- it is not safe!

The prose is another matter entirely, and one I left alone otherwise I would be here ranting for several hours. ;)

[nicosian.livejournal.com]

I think its in how Grey presents it. Not that they even discuss or negotiate, he just starts in on his games. Its all so very hinky. ( and as I read it, she was ok with fisting, but not sex, where I sort of presume the former requires much more finesse and trust and buildup, not that this guy would consider it.) he consistenly doesn't regard her wishes. Its bad dom. Your partner is trusting you. its a two way thing. Its not a take and take situation and the sub the giver alone. Augh. rant rant ranty. you know...

most of all, its that whole "people partaking are DAMAGED" sorts. Yes. please. portray that. Make it look like a playground for users. genius, EL, you donkey's arse of a writer.

He doesn't flog her hard, but even the contemplation or half-acted doing so is so EPICALLY WTF in my book.

[elialshadowpine.livejournal.com]

See, I didn't actually totally mind that, because I have laid out things that I considered non-negotiable. And Ana did negotiate with him; some things, he agreed to change, and others, he said were things he wasn't willing to budge on. I don't actually think that's a huge problem, because at that point, he wasn't pressuring her. He was telling her up front, "If you want a sexual relationship with me, this is what I expect."

Later on is when the pressure started, because she hadn't agreed to the terms, and he was treating her as if she had, and punishing her as if she had. Which is not fucking okay, and THAT is where I have the huge issue. At that point, he should have negotiated each scene separately, or stuck to non-kink.

Yeah, I didn't even touch the "only damaged people are into BDSM", because that's just such a clusterfuck on its own, and unfortunately VERY common in BDSM/flavored romance. :-\

[everstar3.livejournal.com]

But if she'd done any research, she wouldn't have been faithful to her source material!

[nicosian.livejournal.com]

That would have been a mercy for us all.

[naamah-darling.livejournal.com]

I'm well inclined now to add to my novella/novel, which is very much a safe, sane, equal, rational BDSM tale, a page on "here's resources. Educate yourself if you're going to be dabbling, because I do not want people to get hurt."

I actually think this is an amazing idea, and if you wouldn't mind, I'd kinda like to steal it for future use. Something I'm going to FINISH SOMEDAY BY GOD has pretty dysfunctional relationships going on at the beginning, and I'd like to acknowledge that it's problematic in a way that is classy and also not self-undermining. This seems like a good way to go about that.

Also, the line about asses not needing to be trained like puppies made me LOL, which I very badly needed on a very frustrating day.

[nicosian.livejournal.com]

by all means! Have at!

Sit! stay! roll over! Good bum! ( that's just what goes through my horrible little head. There's lead up, work up. practice, if you will but I just can't call it "training." hahaha.)

[everstar3.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I have to admit part of the reason I've never explored the local scene is my awareness that going in as a newbie and a woman screams "I'M NAIVE AND VULNERABLE AND I DON'T KNOW WHAT I'M DOING" to any fuckneck on the prowl. I'm older now than I was when I was in my first (ha, only) relationship, but I'm still extremely wary of sex as a situation where my partner would most likely feel entitled to being in control of me. I do like to think I've evolved to the point where I'd disagree very strongly with anyone who tried to assert his control, though.

True story: my ex, whom I was dating during a time in my life when I was undiagnosed and unmedicated for depression, suggested to me that we might be able to slap each other to jar the other out of a dark mood or whatever. Why I agreed to this I do not remember, except that it seemed reasonable at the time, along the lines of Mrs. Peacock getting slapped in Clue. He tried it exactly once with me: I slapped him back and yelled, "You never get to do that again!" In retrospect, it was a terrible idea to which I shouldn't have agreed, but I did because for some reason I thought he knew better than I did. Well, back then, I thought everybody knew better than I did. Ah, well.

I was going to say that I wished there were classes or something to help subs negotiate the idea of being submissive without being spineless, but I think that sounds a little blamey on my part. In my own extremely limited experience, though, it was really easy for me to talk myself into a mindset where any boundaries I tried to have meant I was somehow "in the wrong." I guess what I'm thinking is that I wish there were a way for the idea that subs are people first to exist in the scene without spoiling it.

Ah, never mind; I don't know what I'm talking about.

[nicosian.livejournal.com]

Makes sense. I'm no authoritative thing on BDSM but I've done a frackton of reading/thinking/research on what I find so much more interesting, on the mental/psych aspects of why people partake, and found some interesting blogs from doms who are as equally as introspective and its been a good foundation for my own ideas on what i'd want/not want, what to expect, how things might go.

( I don't identify as dom or sub, its a completely subjective thing at the moment. I can be one, I can be the other.)

The thing that jars me so much is I don't see much consent in the book. I see pressuring, badgering, coercion and manipulation and not a scenario where either character experiences real growth, or connection. Its so...just..clashy and wrong.

And yeah, it could totally set un-aware folk up for some abuse if theyre not careful. I really wish the writer had done her responsibility.

[everstar3.livejournal.com]

Since my first relationship, I've thought about what I like about the idea of being submissive and where I draw the line. I think what creeps me out about this story is the idea that she's kind of his Galatea: he shapes her raw material and she comes to life as his creation. The one thing I took away from my bad experiences that I'm still sticking by is that my boundaries are mine, and nobody has the right to violate them if I don't want them violated. Even if the other party thinks they're silly boundaries or that I'd be better off if they were expanded. I hate like poison the idea that your partner has the right to push you into situations you don't like or aren't comfortable with because they know better. Maybe there are some people who like that and can handle it, but I know for sure that I am not one of them. That's what squicks me out about this book: the idea that he's casually planning all this stuff for her and she doesn't know.

My ex once told me he didn't love me for myself, he loved me for who I could be. I'm never doing that again.

[nicosian.livejournal.com]

yeah, if Ana was not quite such a starry eyed newbie, I'd buy a bit of boundary nudging but that's just not what happens!

I could BUY someone floating an idea "would you like to try this with me" and some discussion, but again, doesn't happen.

Yarg. just yarg. She is there for his use, her needs be damned.

[thistle-chaser.livejournal.com]

I dabbled in things when I was younger, and luckily we did have classes. A few of the groups even required that you take X number of classes before you'd be considered for membership. Even as a younger person, I was happy to go! The first one I attended covered basic things like "always tell someone where you'll be, make sure they have a phone number for the place [pre-cell phones], a time you'll be back by, etc". This was in San Francisco, which might be part of why. (I'm not at all saying nothing bad happened here, I never got active enough to know one way or the other, but that we're such a sex-positive place might be why we had classes available.)

[everstar3.livejournal.com]

Now I'm kind of wondering if there are classes in my area. They'd have to be very gentle classes for me, though. Like, "I think I might be interested but I'm not sure and I'm pretty sure I'm not hardcore omg." I'm actually very dull in this area so I'm not at all certain that I'd be welcome in the wider circles.

[elialshadowpine.livejournal.com]

Most classes are not personal. They are generally gentle. Some are meant for people who are more experienced, but there are a lot for newbies. They often have demonstration, but that is generally with a volunteer that's committed beforehand!

And you know, if you check it out and decide it's not for you, that's totally fine. It's not something that if you go to a couple classes or munches, your'e committing to the scene. There are plenty of people who go and decide, not their cuppa -- or people who go and decide, hmm, that's interesting! :)

[elialshadowpine.livejournal.com]

Yeah, and there are definitely doms out there that prey on young, naive women who don't know any better.

There are classes. The problem is that the people teaching the classes are not always trustworthy. There's a huge problem with people that are well-known in the kink community, that teach classes, and associate with newbies, and help people learn the ropes, that then take advantage of these people (frequently women).

I generally advise people to go with a friend who is experienced and aware of these things. Problem is, a lot of people like to view the community through rose-colored glasses and don't believe that bad stuff happens there. And it does; the dark side of consent being important is that people who manipulate others into consenting to things they don't want, or sometimes even violate consent entirely, get a pass. And some communities are worse then others.

If you did get involved, I would just go to munches and socialize with people and not play until you have a better idea who is and isn't trustworthy.

[everstar3.livejournal.com]

Come to think of it, I probably only qualify as naive by now, not young and naive. XD

I don't have anybody I know locally who's in to the scene, and that's part of why I never explored it: I haven't the foggiest idea how to meet people who are similarly interested.

[googles local munches]

[grandmother shows up, stands right in front of open laptop screen]

[quickly and casually closes it omg]

Well, that had the potential to be hideously embarrassing.

The local munch sounds like it's friendly, but I don't know. This bit from their faq is reassuring, though: "Touching someone else's ANYTHING without permission is a very bad idea - even for something as simple as looking at a flogger or hugging someone. The leather community must be highly aware of consent issues to survive at all - ignoring such issues at a social gathering may well make it your last such gathering." I hate with the burning passion of a thousand fiery suns being dragged into activities or made the center of attention, so having it be policy that nobody can touch me without my permission is kind of a relief.

I dunno, are you allowed to look into this sort of thing if you're only mildly interested? I suppose there's not a sign at the door: "You must be at least this pervy to go on this ride." Why am I asking you, you poor thing? XD Probably because you're one of the only people I know who talks about this. You don't have to answer any of my questions; I know you didn't open this post for that.

[elialshadowpine.livejournal.com]

LOL. I have family members I totally wouldn't be surprised to find are in the scene, but that could definitely be, um, hilariously embarrassing.

Munches are generally pretty safe. :) People go to munches, for the most part, to meet other people in the scene, and just be friendly. It's more social networking than necessarily finding play partners. You can get an idea of what people are like, and if there are play parties / dungeons / other events, generally they will be mentioned.

If you decide to go to a party of some kind, you DO NOT have to play with anyone, and anybody who pushes you should be roundly smacked upside the head. Most play parties have DMs (dungeon monitors), and if you're new and concerned, usually you can talk to the people in charge ahead of time. They can help introduce you to people :)

You're definitely allowed to go if you're only mildly interested! There are people across all ranges. There are people who are into hardcore sadism/masochism, people who are only into mind games, people who are into fluffy handcuffs... runs the gamut. I've only rarely heard of people going all "kinkier than thou", and honestly, generally not in a munch/party situation.

While there are definitely predators, a lot of people are welcoming and protective of newbies, because we know that they're at greater risk. I talk about it here because the kink community has the bad habit of pretending that predators don't exist, when they do, and they gravitate towards positions of power (which is honestly true for predators in general). I think many people I have met in the kink scene are genuinely good people.

Nowadays, a lot of community organization goes on at FetLife. It's free to start an account; do a search for your local area/city and if groups exist, they will pop up. This is generally a good place to ask questions, and feel out how friendly people are. :)

[everstar3.livejournal.com]

Thanks for being willing to talk to me :) I'm letting this stew in the back of my head: I'm kind of curious to try it but I'm also kind of scared. (Not the least of my worries: how the hell do I explain this to my therapists? "Oh, I thought I'd try dating again so I started poking around in the BDSM scene.")

Yeah, I think if I do look into this my first order of business will be to find some people who are a) not new to the scene, b) willing to share their experiences, and c) only interested in helping me explore. I figure the worst thing I can do would be to jump in straightaway with someone about whom I know nothing while I'm still new and isolated in the community. RECIPE FOR DISASTER.

[elialshadowpine.livejournal.com]

Oh, you're totally welcome :) I am always willing to help newbies out with stuff like that. I have answered so many questions on kink and poly and goth and paganism, lol.

BTW, do you mind if I refriend you? I had took you off back after everything happened with RWP and felt that as an officer there, you did not need to see my ranting.

[everstar3.livejournal.com]

Hee. Well, I've signed up on FetLife, although going through all the groups makes me feel prudish, boring, and, bizarrely, snarly. That last is probably just old scars, though. (My first and only BF tried really really hard to push me into open relationships and being bisexual even though I felt no impulse towards either. It's like fifteen years later and I'm still pissed at him.)

You can refriend me, if you like; I don't say much any more since I had a fight with a friend about the whole Susan G. Komen/Planned Parenthood debacle. I'm still in shock and wary about posting anything I actually want to talk about since I don't want to fight about anything. Although who would have thought taking money away from a major women's health care provider was grounds for argument? Ah well. In any case, I just shan't go back and read your old posts on the subject of RWP. Lord knows I'm all full of mixed feelings on it myself.

[nicosian.livejournal.com]

I was lucky in that I had good close friends who let me talk, explore, without pressure, respecting boundaries. They were eager to share. and there was cake. hey. it was someone's birthday....

[broadwaybabe11.livejournal.com]

I thought it was really common for subs and dome to have a contract?? I had/have one with my sub (we've not been very active lately) and I don't see how there is anything wrong with that.
Ive seen a lot of kink bashing in general when it comes to this book over things that aren't that big of a deal or weird and I don't get it.
And yes, the general public is too ignorant to be able to tell the difference between 24/7 and all subs and dome. That really should have been addressed.
really, the book gives an inaccurate portray of S/m if you really don't have a clue about it, you'd get the wrong impression.
I am not too involved in a community, I am kind of on the outskirts of one, but there is tons of drama within it. There is no happy kinky sex hippy kink community.

[nicosian.livejournal.com]

I think a contract makes sense.Got no problem however people want to negotiate or implement one. Its just that the one in the book isn't really addressed and when it is, the protagonist completely disregards it anyway. he brings it up. insists on it, and turfs it, as far as I can tell. Her wishes, her needs, mean NOTHING.

I know quite a few people in happy kink sex communities, there's always bound to be drama when there's other people, but No happy? Not sure I believe that. I just think the drama stirrers in groups get more control than they deserve to be given. It would be like saying there's no such thing as a happy straight vanilla community.

The issue I have with the book extends to people thinking this is the way of a normal BDSM/ or ANY relationship, and that women are swoonypants over this horrible horrible dynamic. I wouldn't have expected the writer to make this a teachable lesson book, but the least she could have done was written it less ghastly and abusive. But if it's ripping from the same screwy relationship from Twilight, I'm not the least bit shocked. Neither author did any research or thinking and now we have girls thinking these sorts of situations are normal.

Its not like harry potter, we all know magic is fake. Its a real life topic, and issue, and practice, and in my view, incredibly stupid of her to present it the way she did.

[broadwaybabe11.livejournal.com]

Yeah, a contract does make sense. But it's true, in the book the contract was entirely his creation. With me and my sub's contract, we both discussed it.
Yes, I sort of fucking hate that any book that gets popular usually tends to have the dominating brooding male and the wispy innocent, stupid female in a relationship. In general. It pisses me off. I have NOTHING against female sub missives, but the girl in this situation doesn't even know what she wants most of the time and doesn't know what's going on. She's a hopeless human being. Also, as a femdom I scoff at the fact knowing that my kind of relationship will never be as acceptable to the public as the kind presented in 50 Shades. Like I know some people who think I am a bitch for the mildest dominant things I do with to my boyfriend. But Maybe it's best that some idiot doesn't attempt to write a femdom that somehow gains huge popularity.
I love BDSM fiction, though, I even have a guilty pleasure for abusive ones, but I KNOW that that is a very fantasy thing and not real life. This audience that likes 50 Shades unfortunately does not.

[nicosian.livejournal.com]

I'm writing a novel now that lands itself straight in the D/s, with vamps and I'm very very carefully walking through the draft to make sure nothing reads sketchy.

If anything this gack has made me just THAT more detail-aware.

I haven't read much femdom, but i'm not adverse. I'd like to read more. (this character, of mine she negotiates, she draws her boundaries, she enforces them, the dom's obey, and they cower even. because without her, their fun ends too.) I can't fathom writing it any other way.

and there's no brooding male. Its all quite well-centered, brain wise. I've friends who are further versed in the scene doing beta reads. I'm tangentally into it, but I still am aware I could unwittingly misstep.

I'm a fan of fantasy that's not so out of the bounds of reality as to be utterly nonsensical. Fantasy is good. But 50 shades leaves me cold and icky. It just reads so unpleasant and sad and uncomfortable. its not a nice book at all. So misogynistic and as Nonny does point, the scene has issues, and all I can think is this is going to set some people up for abuse and heartbreak by people with less than steller intent.

no good can come of her books, in my view. They're just that unpleasant.

[broadwaybabe11.livejournal.com]

It's also just plain awful writing.
I just don't know why this kind of stuff, like with Twilight and 50 Shades, why women WANT to read this? Serously? I can't even wrap my head around it.

[nicosian.livejournal.com]

There be the grand mystery.

All i can assume is that the "tee hee scandalous! taboo" nature of a kink relationship is getting them.

And a general population's rather narrow idea of how vanilla is vanilla, and what crosses the line to kink, even if the line's fairly fuzzy, the terms a wide river, and if its consentual and adult, its fairly damn normal. Society has a fairly rigid notion of what proper sex is, and given that you can show people getting blown to bits or raped on TV, but you can't show a boob or a woman in orgasm or a same sex kiss without the universe crashing down...its a puritanical view of sexuality that drives this. Women are not to enjoy kink, and its always the mens pushing it sort of thing.

So when a woman writes this, as horrible as it is, it's, I believe, a case of "Ana is PUSHED, she has no choice and likes it" and it takes the responsibility and ownership of her body and sex life off the table. After all, she's doing it for love. If she was dominant or equal or balanced in the tale, that would mean she had ownership of her sexuality and that really freaks out people.

( in my armchair pysch view.) its a fantasy of "I'm not responsible!"

frankly, I'd rather have the ownership for my kink preferences. That's fun.

[broadwaybabe11.livejournal.com]

... I hate our society and it depresses me every day.. I don't even know how we could possibly fix it at this point.
And I don't get this whole fucked up view with women's body parts. I have small boobs, and I go braless often. It usually isn't noticeable, but some people know I don't wear them sometimes and it freaks them the fuck out. My bf said something to his friend about it one time, probably randomly came up in conversation, and now when I am around her she will always make comments about how its inappropriate to go braless.. She one time said this when watching some TV show and some guy was doing drugs... Because illegal substances are so much more acceptable than going braless.
Anyway, it kind of is like that. Like you can't initiate it because it's wrong, but if someone pushes you then, well, you were PUSHED, it wasn't your idea! It reminds me of the forced feminization kink, it makes the guys feel better by saying they were "forced," (a kink many think is sexist, but i personally enjoy feminizing men, even if i am aware of the problems people have pointed out) Also forced bi and cuckolding are the same, they are "forced" or "coerced."

[nicosian.livejournal.com]

We change it by confronting it. By writing something better. By saying malicious coercion is not sexy.

We teach girls that it is THEIR body, their choice, their boundaries however they choose to exert them. Not this "be pure", no shaming. We stop teaching boys that the domain of women is theirs to help themselves to. We stop selling coercion as normal, and start selling healthy kink and sexual expression in consensual relationships as the thing.

( i find north american society so hideously puritanical and pearl clutchy, after three months in amsterdam, I found the honesty in which people tended to address all things sexuality as quite refreshingly nice.)

There's a certain head-kick that comes from "coercion" kink, cuckolding but that's not what 50 shades presents at all, of course.

We change things by being honest about sexuality, expression of, and issues with. And presenting better fiction, I think.

[elialshadowpine.livejournal.com]

Word!

It's part of why my characters are very much in charge, for the most part. I do have a 24/7 D/s story in my "pile of stuff to write" but, well, it's also a lesbian BDSM romance, which I think comes off a little different. At least, it doesn't have the ingrained social issues, I think.

[elialshadowpine.livejournal.com]

"( in my armchair pysch view.) its a fantasy of "I'm not responsible!""

That's exactly what it is. I don't necessarily think it's a bad thing, always (the fantasy), because... I mean, hell, I sometimes have fantasies of being totally controlled by someone else. The idea of that happening in real life? OH FUCK NO. I'm a control freak IRL.

But, much like rape kink, it's a fantasy that appeals to a lot of people. And I think the book is successful in that, and probably I wouldn't have even written this post if not for a) the fact that so many people are using the damn book as a how-to guide for BDSM, and b) the fact that the kink community is sticking its fingers in its ears and singing "LALALALA that doesn't happen here!"

[elialshadowpine.livejournal.com]

I've heard good things about Joey Hill's Natural Law for fem-dom romance, although I have not read it myself. (I really need to, though.) There definitely isn't enough out there, and publishers keep saying that it doesn't sell when they do publish t. :(

I personally think the book was meant as a control kink fantasy, and I don't really have a huge issue with that. The problem is that the book has taken off and so many people are looking to it as a how-to guide for BDSM, and then you have the kink community that is trying to say "lalalala THIS NEVER HAPPENS HERE", when, no, it decidedly does, and there are a lot of active bdsm feminists trying to work on changing it.

I don't exactly expect my control/rape kink to be healthy, LOL, but I really felt the need to point out exactly how the book is fucked up, and how it is unhealthy, and how stuff like it happens in the community all the time.

But, uh, as a control kink book, I'll admit to enjoying it nonetheless.

[elialshadowpine.livejournal.com]

I've never had a contract with any dom or sub I've played with. We talk about things we're interested in and negotiate. Some things are on the table, others are taken off the table as not being acceptable.

The contract in the story isn't the problem, though. Plenty of D/s relationships do that so they have a written out guideline, and that's perfectly okay. The problem is that in the book, Ana doesn't sign the contract for probably 3/4 of the books, but Christian treats her like she already has, exerts control on her as if she has signed it, and punishes her as if she has. She has not agreed to these things at all, and he is pushing her into it. That's the problem with the story.

[nicosian.livejournal.com]

That's the huge killer for me. He presents it at what seems to me the worst time, drops this on her, then if she hesitates or balks, mows on as if she's given assent. He really does mow on as if she's a mere object for his use. I think a contract can be verbal, written, negotiated on site, in part but at no time does it feel to me she's given ANY chance to really understand and vocalize or express her wishes and have them honored. There lies the twitch for me.

I confess to having only skimmed it, I have zero intent of a full read, really.

I GET where control/rape-kink comes from but in my understanding even that is fairly negotiated.I wouldn't even lump it in "unhealthy", either. I think it can be perfectly healthy. Not every fantasy needs to or should be acted on.

i've read that erotica sells much more now with the advent of the kindle, the nook, the ereaders, because then there's no lurid cover, no one has to know you're reading a bit of spankfiction on the train. Maybe this wretched book will at least get people looking for the good fix.

( I think there's just as much issue in a vanilla relationship with unbalance, abusive partners, control issues, etc. i don't think I'd even call such things as in the book specific to bdsm alone, only that people new and dabbling will think it's "part of how it goes.")

[elialshadowpine.livejournal.com]

Yup. It's a huge issue. I don't mind that he's up-front in what he wants, or even that he presents it as a take-it-or-leave-it, because, hey, we all have our dealbreakers, but he pressures and coerces her into participating when she hasn't agreed, and that's not okay.

Control/rape kink IRL, properly, is very negotiated. Control/rape kink in books is a different matter; I've mentioned the book falling under that category elsewhere in comments. The thing is, I don't expect what is essentially a written fantasy to be healthy. Problem is how these books are being taken, and how the community is responding to them.

Erotic fiction has been selling like hotcakes in e-format for about ten years now. It really started taking on when you started seeing PDAs and some e-readers but mostly it was taken by early adopters or people reading on their computers. Nowadays, there are smartphones, tablets, and dedicated e-readers that aren't too expensive. That Ellora's Cave novel with the explicit cover? Yeah, you don't have to worry about people seeing you reading it. It's awesome. (I pretty much don't care what people see me read, but for some people, it's major, especially folks with kids or in conservative areas.)

Yes! And honestly, that's why I have said elsewhere I probably would not have spoken up about the book if not for the fact that it's being treated as a how-to guide and such. Because this sort of unhealthy control kink is really common to vanilla romance; there's a long history of it dating back to the 80s or so. But, there are a lot of people who are unfamiliar to the scene that don't recognize this is just a control fantasy and that this is not how it's supposed to be anymore than your olde fashioned bodice ripper romance depicts a healthy vanilla relationship. It sets people up to be taken advantage of, and hurt.

Its parent novel, Twilight, has done the same thing; someone on fandomsecrets was talking about how in their area, there have been serious issues with teen boys convincing girls that they are vampires and biting them to the point of broken skin and infections. (And ISTR reading articles about this so I believe it.) I mean, yeah, that's teenagers but still.....

[nicosian.livejournal.com]

yeah, twilight has the same icky creepy relationship template. I'd ban my teenagers ( theoretical ones!) from reading it for that reason. Or at least have a very nice sit down chat about it.

I sort of feel for the actor playing edward, when he said he had younger teens coming up begging to be bitten. Ack.

( not that begging for bites is bad, but i'm sort of big on that age of consent thing.)

I opened my writing tumblr with a commenting system, since this has generated much food for thought. we'll see how it goes.

[elialshadowpine.livejournal.com]

I wouldn't ban because they're just going to read it behind your back anyway. (Seriously, there was like one book my mom told me not to read. I still don't know if it was because of the graphic rape -- but yet she recommended me Piers Anthony, which is full of graphic rape -- or because the main characters were a lesbian couple, or because the main character was portrayed as being lesbian due to the rape, which is really pretty fucked up, but I kinda suspect the second. Anyway, her telling me not to read it just made me want to read it more. ^_^)

But having a serious heart to heart discussion about why the relationship that Twilight portrays is unhealthy is, honestly, I think, needed. Particularly since it is so very common.

I kinda love RPattz and Kristen Stewart, who have given interviews in which they basically say they hate the book and played the roles as a parody. It is made of win. I really feel for them between the nutsy fans and the fact that they are both being criticized in their newer work based on playing those roles. I have heard so many nasty comments about Snow White and the Huntsman because of Kristen Stewart's acting in Twilight (in which she basically said that Bella was a wooden, blank slate, so she played it up like that).

[emily-goddess.livejournal.com]

This is a good post and you should feel good. I'm only passingly aware of 50 Shades, but if someone had described it to me as simply a 24/7 D/s fantasy, I probably would have snapped it up in a second. So I'm glad for your commentary.

And yeah. I'm not in the kink scene at all (kinky, yes, but not in the scene) but even I know that abusive doms are a problem. Bless you for not being silent about it.